“If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the
results of a hundred battles.” - Sun Tzu
It would seem that there are those who frequent the
Bermuda is another world site that have inspired Uncle Elvis
into engaging me here, so I will accommodate him (them). My
challenge here is a simple one, exploration, education and some how along the way an attempt to continue the discussion on racism.
Let me say this. Regardless of my feelings, I never resorted to
name-calling, and never resorted to the sort of character assasination tactics that happen at BIAW. I will not hide, I will not run, and I will only continue the dialogue here. The battle is on, Uncle Elvis asked for it, so let him bring it. In as much, I ask only one thing, that we do it one thing at a time, and if he could check his profanity hat at the door it would be greatly appreciated.
One other thing. It was/is not my intention to speak for others. I speak of things as I see them, which may or may not agree with the status quo. In my "distorted" (like the title of my blog) view, it is only one view, mine, I never asked people to like it, I never asked for alarms to be sounded, but we are here now, so let the process be complete.
You got your wish UE, I will back up whatever you want...
Ok... when?
ReplyDeleteI did a whole dissection of your post.
Start there.
pick a point, start at the beginning. wherever you want.
ReplyDeleteOk... start at the beginning.
ReplyDeleteYou put up a post that I thought was filled with misinformation.
I replied to it and dissected it, point by point.
That'd be a place to start, no?
Or do you want me to copy/paste it here in this thread?
I put up a post that you thought was filled with misinformation. Ok. I'm conscious that I have upset you, now fill me in. bring ONE point to the table and let's discuss it. I am all for it. Don't copy/paste your entire rant, that's too long and I'd like to take it a step at a time.
ReplyDeleteIf that's ok by you.
Fine.
ReplyDeleteGo through the post, point by point, if that's how you want to do it.
I'm not sure what you want me to do.
I've done my point.
You misrepresented the truth. I showed how.
Now it's up to you to prove me wrong, if you can.
If you want to do it one step at a time, go to.
The post is there for you to work on.
You are the one who has accused me of misrepresenting the truth. You are the one who felt it necessary to come here and challenge my discussion. If you strongly believe that I have misrepresented the truth, then please tell me. I am not going to go through your rant and argue every time you say "bullshit". You don't have to agree with me, and you don't have to read my blog... as they say on T.V. if you don't like the program... change the channel or turn it off.
ReplyDeletethe ball is squarely in your court. do something with it. I have created this thread for YOU to do with as YOU please. I am here to make YOU happy.
namaste...
I DID tell you!
ReplyDeleteI wrote a whole post on it, expressing clearly why you were wrong.
"I am not going to go through your rant and argue every time you say "bullshit"."
I said it twice. Right at the end.
You STILL haven't addressed ANYTHING said.
Why are you evading so strongly?
Do you want me to copy/paste the whole post, broken up into points, one point at a time?
Ok... I'll play along. Let's see if you'll answer or if you just avoid again.
Let's start with an easy one...
""Such is life in Bermuda. A core society where whites are the minority and are supported by a British oligarchy,"
What do you mean that "whites... are supported by a British oligarchy"?
What do you mean by oligarchy?
Are you saying that the British only support whites?
Are you saying that this oligarchy has an active effect on day to day Bermudian life?
What do you mean by this?
Think of it like this: A system created by the white man that has been supported throughout history by a single presence that can make or break our existence.
ReplyDeleteWikipedia defines oligarchy like this:
An Oligarchy (Greek Ὀλιγαρχία, Oligarkhía) (oligocracy) is a form of government in which power effectively rests with a small elite segment of society distinguished by royal, wealth, intellectual, family, military or religious hegemony.
The fact that we have a man, sitting in Government house, appointed by a crown supports this idea. Who does he represent? What is his purpose? Is he absolutely necessary, and who gives him the right to power? What has our society done to remove this last remaining vestige of the crown from our shores?
Don't you tire of driving down Burnaby Hill and seeing the Union Jack flying over the center of Hamilton?
The fact that we have a man, sitting in Government house, appointed by a crown supports this idea. Who does he represent?
ReplyDelete"The Governor of Bermuda is appointed by Her Majesty The Queen on the advice of the British Prime Minister."
What is his purpose?
- "He or she is responsible for the matters set out in the Bermuda Constitution, and for such other matters as The Queen, through her Ministers in London, assigns to him."
- "The Constitution reserves to the Governor responsibility for external affairs, defence (including the armed forces), internal security and the police, except insofar as he chooses to delegate. The Governor is the Commander-in-Chief of the Bermuda Regiment; and is also responsible for certain public appointments."
Is he absolutely necessary, and who gives him the right to power?
ReplyDelete- "British Ministers expect Governors to ensure, in all the Overseas Territories, high standards of probity, governance and adherence to international obligations; and to protect key values, such as the independence of the judiciary, the political impartiality of the public service, and integrity in the administration of justice. All Governors in the Overseas Territories are expected to work in close partnership with the locally elected Governments."
What has our society done to remove this last remaining vestige of the crown from our shores?
- Why does anything have to be done?
"What has our society done to remove this last remaining vestige of the crown from our shores? "
ReplyDeleteNothing, because the society as a whole voted against it in 1995 and if the recent polls are to be believed then the majority of us don't want to see him leave just yet. It is not solely the white man that is severing ties as your post seems to incinuate.
I know for a fact that being part of the crown ensures a level of confidence is retained by the firms which produce approximately 80% of our entire GDP. Any form of political instability and firm's will evacuate these shores in droves much larger than they are now. And what other economic pillar can we rely on after that? DO NOT say tourism or anything platinum or I will have to regurgitate the most recent and persistent declines in this industry.
I have to ask as it appears you are a clear advocate for independence. What are the perceived benefits of going independent at this stage of the game? What will we gain from such a status that we don't already have? People have tirelessly named the ACTUAL benefits of retaining our UK ties, but no one has yet to provide any real or perceived benefits of being a totally sovereign nation.
Also, how does the man sitting in Government house restrict our daily lives? What actions does he perform that strips us of our basic inalienable human rights? What are the negatives of having him there in the first place? Actual negatives, not emotional please.
"It is not solely the white man that is severing ties as your post seems to incinuate."
ReplyDeleteSorry, it should have read:
It is not solely the white man that is against severing ties as your post seems to incinuate.
In a post-cold war world it's an idea (quaint as it is) that means nothing. If we are self governing, let us go about the business of self-governing. In our day to day lives he means nothing. He does nothing. He is a ceremonial connection to a crown that most English don't even want to recognize.
ReplyDeleteIf we need a person in such a role why can't it be someone local, why can't it be someone black? What is it that the "Guvnor" does for us? If I recall, when we asked the U.K. for help after hurricane emily, they wanted to send us a big fat bill.
Does he make us sleep easier? Does his presence bring money to our pockets?
This isn't just about nationhood, it's about common sense. I voted against independence in the referendum, and then went to some of the white paper meetings. I spoke with the committee members, people from countries much poorer than us who have obtained independence and are much happier for it. Part of the white paper was a survey from companies about their feelings should we attain independence. The consensus was that as long as our taxation policies remained the same, they had no problems with it.
I have taken a stance of wanting to know as much as possible before I change my mind. It does not take away from the fact that I do not believe that we need to have a governor.
It's simply not needed anymore. I know people feared the day when the PLP took over (I was one). I know they aren't much better than their predecessors. I don't fear independence day any more. I need to be ready when it happens. My kids have to live in this country long after I'm gone.
Mr Ray,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your reply. However, you did not provide a single benefit that is asscoiated with independence. From what I gathered your whole argument for independence is based on the happiness (perceived or real) of some individuals whose own country's gained independence. So as of now I remain unconvinced.
Also do you believe that not one white person should be afforded a single position of authority within Bermuda's Government (as per yuor argument that the Governor should be at least black)? Are white people in your eyes no longer able to contribute to the betterment of Bermuda? Does that truly represent the true demographic makeup of this island? That seems pretty racist to me in all honesty.
Maybe you don't care or utlize the numerous benefits that are associated with us being linked to Britain. But I assure you, as I know of hundreds of Bermudians that do including myself. And no not just evil white Bermudians either.
How about the EU passport which millions of people around the world would kill for? Or the deeply discounted tuition for UK universities that numerous Bermudians and their families benefit from? Or how about the fact that unlike 99% of countries inthe world Bermudians are exempted from having to apply for Visas in order to travel to 99% of the world. And as I said before, it (BOT status) presents a perception (real or not) that Bermuda is a strong centre to do business because of these ties and thus protects our one and only meal ticket at this point in time.
So again if you will or can please provide one benefit for us to be independent at this juncture in history? Just one. Thanks for your time.
Hello JMad:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if you read my post. I'm not a proponent of independence, I'm a proponent of education. As I said, I voted AGAINST it in the referendum. If our country attains independence (by hook or by crook) we should at least do everything we can to be prepared for that inevitable day.
If you look at it logically, one of the PLP's main platforms has always been independence. Since the party's inception it has always been one of the things they have wanted most and since they became the government there has always been that cloud hanging over us. It is only natural to prepare, educate and accept that one day... it will happen.
What are the benefits? Well for those that believe in such things, Nationhood. The ability to stand alone and be counted. The ability to be accepted in the world community and have a voice on world matters. I'm not saying that it isn't a risky proposition, I'm just saying that there is a large segment of our government and their followers that want it to happen.
Of course there are benefits in remaining the way we are, of course it's nice to be able to travel freely, enjoy the education advantages and all that goes with being a British colony (or Overseas Territory as they are called). Of course I believe in the idea that if it isn't broken, don't mess with it. I am also a realist and that realist tells me that I am not naive enough to believe that in deep dark halls it isn't being discussed, that the ball isn't bouncing around and that people are enjoying the idea of independence.
The Uighur statement was strong from the premier. Right or wrong, it's been done and the damage (minimal) between him and "the guvnor" is getting worse. It my not happen anytime soon, but be aware, IT WILL HAPPEN.
Now, you have deemed me as a person who hates white people. I don't, because I am white. I drew a point in reference to our "governor" being local, and whether that's black, white, or red, gold and green, I really don't care. If there was a way to remove the last vestiges of this oligarchy and remain a member of the commonwealth, that would be fantastic.
As I said, I don't fear independence day any longer. If it's going to happen, I need to make sure that it's done right and that my kids (and yours if you have them) don't suffer a fatal mistake.
Hello Phil,
ReplyDeleteRe: your last paragraph. I really can't see that Independence is going to happen. Yes, I suspect the PLP will try and go down the 'election route' to get there, but the key point to that is the UK - and only the UK - can approve the legislation that makes Bermuda independent. So the PLP can fiddle with it, blow hot air about it, try to rally the troops to vote for it, but it comes down to a referendum and the UK in the final analysis.
Either that, or we declare UDI (I don't think so - do you?)
The problem with the pro-Independence debate is that it is driven from the heart with poor attempts to add facts to support it. On the other hand, the anti-independence debate is stuffed with facts that don't need to be regurgitated here - we all know them.
The other wider issue is that if you look at what is happening in the world, countries are actually coming together, not separating. Europe for example. Now you might try and argue we should join Caricom, but I see that as Bermuda giving - but not receiving.
Could we align to the States? Yes - we could, but most pundits suggest that would be more problematic than it is worth.
You're a Bermudian. Me - I am a spouse of, for some 10 years. You know Bermudians better than I do.
Do you really believe that they would "want" independence?
The world is moving towards interdependence not independence. The independence obsession is a relic of an ideologically driven party leadership whose world view really hasn't changed.
ReplyDeleteAs to the issue of the Governor's race. What is the point here? Is it that the highest authority must represent the racial majority? That's a very unpleasant slippery slope that I thought the world was moving past. That a racial majority has some superior claim to authority. That is racism by definition.
JMAD has pointed out that Bermudians overwhelmingly selected the current constitutional arrangement in 1995, and probably higher if it were to happen again.
This is a reflection of the realism in Bermudians that Bermuda would never be independent but would immediately have to go about go setting up new alliances because we're too small to have any influence.
In that scenario an independent Bermuda would be no different than the one we have today. So what's the point. This means that the issue really isn't independence, but the UK. That issue won't go away until the black nationalists of the 1960's expire. They're ideologically driven to hate the UK. Nothing anyone says will change that.